Low Code and Mittelstand? A perfect combination!

In this second episode of the low code founders podcast, we will talk with Can about the possibilities of low code for mittelstand companies.

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Especially in Germany, the Mittelstand companies or Hidden Champions have a very huge economical relevance. 
Therefore, it is even more important to use the given technologies to further strengthen the business model. Low Code can help here in various ways. Either to improve internal processes and gain productivity. Other than that, the Mittelstand can use low code to develop new products and open up new business opportunities. 

Can is using the following low code tools: 

• Wordpress
• E-flow
• Bubble.io  

Can is an absolute expert in this field. He just recently founded his own company, 360 digital transformation. You can find a lot of information about his company and upcoming webinars on his page: https://360dt.de/ On top of that you can find Can on LinkedIn and Youtube.

He also recently wrote an interesting article about the future of low code.

To improve the overall entrepreneurial spirit and its failure attitude, he organizes Fuck Up nights where knowledge can be shared and learnings gathered.

This episode is highly recommended for everyone working in medium-sized companies and want to learn more about the usage of low code.

If you have feedback or ideas about which topics need to be covered at this podcast, you are more than welcome to touch with me.

You can find more information on www.lowcode-founders.com, or you can drop me a message at sarah@biberei.de 

Enjoy and keep on building new digital products. 

Sarah 

Support the show (https://www.buymeacoffee.com/lowcodefounders)

Transcript of the episode: Low Code and Mittelstand? A perfect combination!

Intro Can

You will be never ever ready and never ever the right time because there is no perfect readiness or ultimately readiness or the perfect time for that, you to just start. I was in the same position, some time ago but in order to contemplate that much, I decided “you know what I'm going to do it”. 

Speaker Sarah

Hello everyone, today we have a new guest with us, it is Can and for those of you will follow me for a while, you already know him as he invited me some weeks ago to his podcast, the Digital Mittelstand and Can just recently started his own company 360 digital transformation and today we will learn about his journey, his company and why he's so passionate about local tools. Welcome Can!

Speaker Can

Thank you, Sarah, thank you for having me.

Speaker Sarah

Can you please introduce yourself to the audience and tell us more about your current position and your company.

Speaker Can

Sure, sure. My name is Can and I am the founder of 360 digital transformation where we help small and medium businesses. In German, Mittelstand, two optimist Digitalis and optimist their business specific processes. Exactly on the same topic. I host the Digital Mittelstand podcast and Sarah was my guest a couple of weeks ago. She gave us quite valuable insights about local application development and besides all that I am a triathlete, I live in Berlin and am passionate about digital transformation.

Speaker Sarah

All right, so when you have a big motivation and helping the Mittelstand to become more digital, why is that? why Mittelstand?

Speaker Can

I think it's a great question because it has two reasons. First, I believe especially the g

German Mittelstand is very unique in what they are doing. Let's take corporate in Germany and Mittelstand as an example. In Fortune 500 companies, there are only 28 German companies. So this is less than 1%. However, when it comes to small world market leaders or in German Hidden Champions.. There are 1300 German companies which makes 48% of the world. This is incredibly amazing how successful German Mittelstand is, when you think of their technology, they are already quite advanced in production technology.  Our R&Ds or Research and Development activities are also they are there in the experts in their industries, they are world market leaders. So they know their industry's customers very well. So everything is great on that side. However, not necessarily they are digitalized yet, which also have of course different reasoning. Some companies have been there for more than 100 years if not 50, 60 years. So it's easy to understand why they are not yet digitalized. So I see a great potential in the Mittelstand combining the power of digitalization with their market knowledge and their position. I believe the potential is very huge. So that's why Mittelstand. The second reason is most of the Mittelstand companies are family companies so they are relatively small and for me it's a choice, it's a personal choice. I would like to not work for a corporation but for a Mittelstand company if I am the employee. So as an entrepreneur or the service provider, I do the same and our let's say perspectives match more so that's the personal reasons I would say.

Speaker Sarah

I think you said some very interesting aspects and I can only agree on this because I guess you don't know, but I wrote my Master thesis about Hidden Champions and the success criterias by Hidden Champions. Hidden Champion is a more German thing. Where really market leading niche companies and I can only agree that they have a huge impact on the German economy and in the German wealth as well as on the German culture because most of those Mittelstand or Hidden Champions are located in the rural area and they are also supporting the local community. While supporting maybe from a football club or with giving in rural areas jobs for the people. I can really agree on all the aspects you said. Why do you think maybe we can go a little bit deeper into reasons why the Mittelstand it's not so digitalized, maybe as it is in corporate is. Why do you think there are more other reasons why the Mittelstand is not there yet.

Speaker Can

Yes, but before starting with that, I just want to tell a short story. I have a business partner in Bayern. We were driving around Bayern with him and he was like “Can, look here, there is the world market leader for very niche things like really, really niche things like drilling bits. Oh there is 1000 employees there but they are creating miracles”. So those kind of stories, because you said rural areas that reminded me of that story, those start kind of stories always relate to Mittelstand and by they are successful because I recently read an article about the Corona crisis and then the enterprise is laying off these thousands of people. Mittelstand actually grew because they don't lay off their employees when the crisis hits, They keep their employees. So this is also one important factor why Mittelstand is very important to the German economy because 99% of the German companies are Mittelstand but also by keeping their employees. They were even able to grow within the crisis time. This what I wanted to mention before I jump into the answer. So of course there are historical reasons. I would remember one friend working for a digitalization project has really had to check for the insurance policy date because the insurance state was 1878. So more than 140 years old and he thought there's a writing mistake or something. But literally the contract was from that time. So then the businesses are very old in history, it is difficult to change. The difference between corporations and Mittelstand here is: corporations have the money and potential to base the money and some of their projects are successful, some of them not I and I’m not 100% say that all the corporations are digitalized. You can check some  companies starting with Deutsche and you can end the second word. So I don't want to give any names but I think we all understand, however Mittelstand don't have these extreme budgets for spending for experimentation. So they have to make sure that the projects, let's say the digital transformation projects would have tangible effects on their business. So I also see a gap there between us. So the service providers and the Mittelstand, so we need to speak the same language and that's only possible if we meet at the same table and speak about it. Therefore, my goal is always not to be the consultant who says what should be done but be the guy who implements the project and be there till the end, providing a proof of concept. And if the Mittelstand company likes this proof of concept that could be, in your case Sarah one application, in my case one process or 2, 3 processes but then only they see the outcome only see the tangible outcome. Then we can scale it up and create maybe a bigger project. That's how I see that we can also work together with Mittelstand coming back to your question, I would say they have a huge potential. They are not that bad, but they should act right now.

Speaker Sarah

You also said that during the coronavirus, we saw that the Mittelstand was actually not laying off any employees, but maybe also maybe increasing or at least keeping their workers, was stable. So with all the success, the Mittelstand still has. Is there actually a reason why the Mittelstand actually go and digitalize more? Couldn't finish them. Just stay the same and still keep their success rate.

Speaker Can

Then I would ask a question, do they keep producing the same product or do they keep investing research and development? Then, my question would be dead. And I think that's a rhetorical question. Right? Nobody or no company can stay the same. This example would be slightly different than Mittelstand, but could challenge the typical business of, let's say broadcasters Netflix rolled out in 26 countries overnight. So let's assume you are a broadcaster in Eastern Europe, and you don't have even a close competitor, you are the king or queen there, that the next day you have the biggest online broadcasting company as your competitor in the Mittelstand. In case, of course, that won't be the case tomorrow. There will be a producer of drilling bits and they'll treat you however, the challenges are there, the business models are changing and you should also change accordingly adapting to your environment. If not, you should be the one who is leading the change. So I think Mittelstand is great where they stand with their production, they lead the market, they have the best products, they are the innovative ones because they are the best of the best and why not take this approach apply to digitalization and be the best in the digitalization as well. So for Mittelstand, I think it's not drastically as people show them to be because they have this expertise already, but we just need to combine with the right technology and right people.

Speaker Sarah

Absolutely, maybe one point there. The Mittelstand also has to speak of the benefit of having a close relationship with the customers and this is something which startups are missing and which Corporates are sometimes missing and if we use that, all the insights definition has about their customers, they could develop a much better product when using new technologies as well. So I also think that the combination of the benefits of mission already has by combining with with the benefits of new technologies. The Mittelstand and can be even greater than it's secure and they are so I can absolutely agree on that and what do you think, which parts of digitalization because digitalization is a big word and everyone has a kind of a different understanding on that. So if you think about digitalization and Mittelstand, which you do all day long, which part are the most critical are the most ones the Mittelstand should attack on right now.

Speaker Can

That's a great question. I would love to answer that question in a slightly long paragraph. Before we start, we should think about what is our digital purpose? Why do we want to digitalize at all? And only then can we define our strategy. We can maybe assign any role as CDO or CTO, but then we need to think about our business model. You know there is a great tool called business model canvas and I use it for almost all of my business ideas and it gives a great run down of the business. Where are my revenue streams, where are my cost structures, who are my key partners but the most important, who are my customer segments of course this is very important as well. But the most important thing is what my value proposition. And if we bring a digital perspective to the business model canvas, we can see which digital business models can help me to increase my revenue for example. So that's one way, however, this is just prerequisites even to start with digital transformation because you have to have your digital purpose, you have to have your value proposition at least to be tested. But then you go with the people. Digital transformation starts with people unless you convince your people with the real benefits there is highly likely you know “culture eats strategy for breakfast” the typical quote by Peter Drucker, I believe. That's also valid for Mittelstand which has a deeper culture because of the relationships and employees working there 10-20 years. Then once you think about how can I create more value for my customers and for my employees with this question in mind then you can go with your processes and for me of course the core is in the processes and Mittelstand know this better than everyone else because their production processes are like 100% perfect because one little mistake in the production process will be not so good for the outcome. Therefore, their processes are optimized, the production processes, but not necessarily the way the business operates. For me I would look at the process and still forget about technology, forget about process automation. Forget about local development. Just purely processes. How can I create more value by optimizing and automating my processes and then you see, “oh maybe this process steps or this signature step is not necessary anymore”. So you see the potential to optimize your process and streamline your process. That could be back office processes that could be HR processes, this could be your QM processes. So all of them could be optimized and only then when you optimize your processes of course you might ask for help externally. That's okay. The earlier in these digital transformation steps that I explain you have the help of course the better than someone can guide you. However, what you can do with yourself as well on Tuesday, so the first working day in Germany next week on Tuesday you can ask your employees that question “what can we optimize?” and that's for free. You don't need to spend any money but then you know what to optimize then with the help of an external consultant or maybe with the combination your IT and operations you can decide then which technologies should I choose. Do I need a low code app for as as a bridge between my partners and me or do I need to provide the customer service center with chatbots automated or do I need a process automation tool or do I need process mining or do I need robotic process automation technology comes all the way at the end and then you will see the tangible outcomes. Having said that of course in the 2nd and 3rd step you need to define very precise KPI S that also have tangible effects on your business so production permit or customers served per day. If digitalization can have an effect on this then you will be even more convinced to extend your project or digital transformation journey more sorry that the answer took me so long. But it's a difficult concept to explain so I take all the way from the start till the end.

Speaker Sarah

I think we can be so grateful for the explanation and you mentioned where we are important aspect and I like to repeat on that because I completely agree. Is that you first have to identify the process without having a technology in mind. You should really think about “how can I optimize the current process?”, “Do I really need all the process steps?” Or maybe for example, “I can also can get completely get rid of this process”. For example, if I say I give more freedom to the employees so they don't have to ask someone for permission or whatsoever. Then, after you have the process steps optimized then you can think about which tools can I use? The technology cannot use because otherwise you have shitty process before and then you have a shitty digital process after that.vThis makes no sense at all, even worse, if you do this one time and maybe the process even worse after you did the digitalization because used new tools, maybe people have to get used to the new tools and there's some kind of fear whatsoever. Then for the next process automation it's even harder because people saw with the last improvement with the last optimization, it got worse. It didn't help me. And that's why I think it's so so important to reserve more time and to put much more effort in thinking about the processes without technology but still but only the process.

Speaker Can

I would like to give a short example of having a Ferrari without having a driver license or even without knowing how to drive.

Speaker Sarah

Yeah, it's a it's uh well you can have it as a decoration

Speaker Can

Good, yeah, the outcome is there. So thank you for emphasizing on that because I couldn't emphasize more about this. 

Speaker Sarah

When we're talking about tools, you and I share something, we are big low code and no code friends. So can you explain in your own words, what are the benefits you're seeing when using low code and no code tools, especially in your area of processes because my area is as you already said more on the implication development path. So from your daily work from your experience, why are you such a fan of low code and no code?

Speaker Can

Sure, sure. First of all, yesterday I wrote a blog post about it and I would be happy to share the blog post. It's in english as well with the audience and I will send you the link Sarah, thank you. From my personal experience, first of all low coat or no code tools because low code includes no code in the description. So I always say low code, just to eliminate some misunderstandings. When I say low code a low code too include the no code tool as well. So low code gives the possibility to rapid prototype and what we need with digital transformation is speed. I don't want to plan for six months and conceptualize, then plan for six months, then execute in one year. This makes two years and you end up with something you might end up with something that nobody wants with local tools. We are able two prototype the whole process in a very short time circle so that we can get the inputs of the clients, inputs of the stakeholders, inputs of the employees so that if there is a shitty part in our application or shitty part in our process, it doesn't matter. We get the feedback and we make it even better. With a little time frame way more effective and way more collaborative. Therefore, the end result is from a methodology perspective, also very helpful to all of the parties. That's the difference between a high code application and a low code application, regardless of who is doing the development because of the pre-embedded codes in the tools, you can create blocks and with these blocks you are so quick to prototype. So sick, that's the first reason. I was recently talking to another Mittelstand company, they do software automation and they have created a different approach to software operation automation, like a local approach, they create a block library. So if you have this test case before so you can use the block by drag and drop, you can create a new test case like 80% of its the same. So you don't need to quote the whole test again from scratch, but you can use this ready-made blocks. So like in websites I always give the website example. I created my first website in 2000. There are nothing else beyond, not 2010, I was 15 years old and back then you have to know html and this was not enough, of course you have to do some PHP, ASP that even not exist right now you have to do a lot of stuff in order to have a website and that still looked shitty. However right now with Wordpress, with Squarespace, Shopify in a matter of hours, your website is ready and functioning great. So that's the best tangible example that I can give about low code who calls for the website. Of course, if you run a €10 million online business, of course you will invest in cutting your online shop. However, if you are like us or like me understand you have your own budgets for certain stuff buy the code from scratch, why not use affordable? Also, bringing faster results than comparison with high quote solutions. Why not use low code solutions? Again a long answer but I am so passionate about locals, I can talk for hours.

Speaker Sarah

I can't see something the audience can't see. Is it really your passion in your eyes when you're talking about locals and it's, that's really pure motivation. I would like to add two things. You talked about speed and you talked about the possibility to show results much faster and to get in touch with the stakeholders much faster and I think just relates where we were with the Mittelstand because earlier we said the Mittelstand can't invest so much money in maybe something which is failing and this is absolutely true because they don't have the money and they don't have the people also doing that. With low code we also have the possibility to limit those risks because you can get results much faster. You can get in touch with stakeholders, you can get in touch with clients and you get a much faster answer whether you're your product or your process is actually right or you are on a good way and you can then iterate and further develop your product and I think that's a very good point and the other point I would also like to make is quality. One benefit for low code, there's always speed but I think it's also quality and if you think about it, if you build by yourself, if your own development team a functionality like user management or payment processes whatsoever, you can do this on scratch and use five developers. And I don't think that you have the same quality or even near the quality than from a company who has 100 developers developing years on the user development, user management and developing years on any kind of payment systems because their, that's their daily basis and they did it for so long and it's tested by so many external developers and users. I never really got it. Why on Earth would we are thinking that if I developed something by myself on a small team just at the very first time, why should it be any better than someone who's been doing it for years and all day long. So I think that that's also maybe a reason why low quote is not that common yet at least in Germany because sometimes the low is sometimes people think lowest means with quality, like low quality and I think it's the complete opposite. If you think about how much, how many hours has been put into this, this piece of functionality developed.

Speaker Can

Yes. And this is always about how much you put in, how much you get out, low code application can be a shitty application, a high code application can be a shitty application as well. But the investment that you made for a shitty low code application will be, let's say five units. And the high court one will be 50 units. That's also the difference between the amount of shit you receive. Sorry for these bad words, but I would like to emphasize one point Sarah mentioned which is low risk, it comes with low risk and this is what Mittelstand needs. Enterprises have the possibility to lose a lot of money into Stanton. This is also very in line with agile methodologies fail fast and fail forward. With low coat you can do that as well and it's a great platform to realize. I cannot agree more about failing fast and failing forward.

Speaker Sarah

What are your favorite low code tools? Which one do you use mostly? Or which one would you recommend to our Mittelstand audience?

Speaker Can

Yeah. In this case of course it's really like an advertisement but I am using a low code business process management tool, this is called eflow. I'm quite happy because as I said, it gives the price advantage, it gives the idea to set it live in maybe 72 hours. This wouldn’t be possible with a regular high code business process management tool. Therefore, I can only speak about my expertise of business process management but also with process mining, you also have a new product. This is also an add on to existing BI tools like Power BI. The customer can really see results in weather of Mittelstand which in normal or regular tools would be weeks if not months. I could only give an example from my professional experience. I use Wordpress for my website can@360dt.de everyone can have a look and also I use Bubble to play around just to satisfy my own curiosity as well. There are many tools available in the market and the best version or let me rephrase it. The best thing about it is, you can try Bubble for free if you want a budget app that you want to check your grocery spending of course you can download an app. If  you have curiosity like me or like Sarah just played around and give it a chance. It is addictive, I have to warn you guys. But yeah give yourself a chance. I actually had one of my friends too because they were lacking. They were losing the receipts and they are accompanied with five people. So I help them to build a small app using Bubble just to track their expenses. And it's so simple it's just Google Sheets and photos combined. That's it and some formulas in between. But it works for them and they are then account can take the receipts from there and even if they lose the receipts because they are working on the construction and it's so possible to you know lose paper then it's fine because they have the digital copy already, so benefits out there for everyone.

Speaker Sarah

I'm so happy that you're also a big fan of Bubble and I am so in love with this tool and I'm not getting paid. It makes you really addicted because you can really see your results so far. We talked about a lot of low locals and no code tools and I would like to ask you some personal questions because what I think is really interesting for the audience because sometimes people are thinking about, I would also like to start my own company but maybe I'm not there yet”. Maybe you can give us some insight about what was your motivation. Why did you start a company? I mean the audience must know Can and I were both at the same university but we haven't met there. So we have a good education and I'm pretty pretty sure Can could get a good job at the corporate level. So why did you choose the adventure of being an entrepreneur?

Speaker Can

Thank you for this great question Sarah and you know you said something like is it the right time or am I ready in those lines and the answer is no, you will be never ever ready and never ever the right time because there is no perfect readiness or ultimately readiness or the perfect time for that, you just start and I was in the same position let's say some time ago, but in order to contemplate that much, what I decided, you know what, I'm gonna do it and that's how it is and I still sometimes can't live last week actually I received the confirmation of the registration of my company to the hundreds registers. I don't know the English word right now and I won't spend time searching for it, for the official authorities and this made me so happy and you even forget the fever, contemplating about this, even the result is great. In the beginning, of course the challenge starts right now because the company has running costs and you have to cover them, you have to find your clients. Yeah, but unless you do something, you will never get there. So again, instead of contemplating who is my ideal customer, you start prototyping right? But this is not software development, this is business development. So if you are not sure who your ideal customer is, go and talk with them and you can say okay, this guy or this uh woman is great, this is not, then you know who your ideal customer is, same, fail forward, fail fast, the same approach. For me, it was slightly different because I knew who my ideal customers were, Mittelstand, who has already showed some interest for digital transformation because I believe I don't need to convince anyone in 21st century to see the benefits of digital transformation so that I niched down my target audience. However, I still need to go out and talk with them. I do a podcast about this, I write blog posts, I organize webinars, I participate in great podcasts like Sarah’s but, I am doing something about it. The only suggestion to the people who are considering establishing their own company is to go for it and what could be the worst case, the worst case could be a great adventure nothing worse.

Speaker Sarah

You started just very recently, but if you, if you think about a couple of months ago when you decided, “I'm going to start my own company” where there are some things here you would now say with all your experience, you wished you had or learned you wish you knew before? like handling situations like with the government to get 100 legacy intact or any other things.

Speaker Can

I would start earlier. I would establish the company earlier. That's the only thing I wish I had done before. But I could give a suggestion, I used a company in order to help me with the establishment. So they took all the legal stuff and arranged the notary meeting which is the first step. And I was so happy with their service. So I can only suggest it to people regardless of if you are German or non German doesn't matter. They help you for a very fair amount of money. They solve all the pain points that you might have. What was for me was to sign the contract and send the money to the bank account. That's almost what I only did in the all these cumbersome establishment process. However, if I were alone or if I were doing it by myself then I am sure that there would be very different losing points that you might lose time and sometimes even money because you did something wrong and you have to reapply again. Top suggestion from me to people who want to establish their company is to get professional help.

Speaker Sarah

Yeah. Absolutely. I also see that some people don't like to get help because they want to do it all by themselves. And I think that's wrong because I mean I would never ever you know um white my own contract. If I knew I needed legal advice, I would go directly to a lawyer to help me with that. And I think they are also different other situations where if I need help here now instead of spending so much time and don't get it done anyway, I can ask an expert helping me, helping me on that as

Speaker Can

well and you said some personal stuff personally I know how much time or how much money I get exchanging my time so if a task exceeds my opportunity cost that during this let's say one h I could earn more, why should I spend it doing it and I'm sure it is legal stuff contract not her terming the appointment, I would lose so many hours that I could, I have actually focused on this time period creating content and approaching to clients and doing something about business which has effects on the bottom line. So I think as an entrepreneur we should be always considering what's the outcome and what's the input, if the input that we give like we could outsource it and we can create more value for our business, of course you will all sources so uh I think for me it's a no brainer but glad that you experience the same.

Speaker Sarah

Absolutely, so you are full of energy now we're just started a company you have I guess and a lot of projects on to do this. We are very curious, do you want to share something with the audience on your next project or your next goals. Where can we also find you, maybe you can give some contact information if the audience listens to our podcast and says I really need to meet trying to help me.

Speaker Can

Yeah, thank you for this question. Let's start with the contact information then 360dt@de that's my email address and 360dt.de is my website but I am quite active on LinkedIn so everybody can find me easily on LinkedIn, of course I am there for the German audience in Sync but not that active there. I host in youtube The Digital Mittelstand podcast, I am quite open to new experiences from Mittelstand, so I host experts from Mittelstand like Sarah herself, this is how people can reach me. Coming to the other question, one of the things that I see a lot of entrepreneurs do is losing focus because there are so many things that we can do, so many great opportunities but so few of us, so we have to be focused. Therefore I would like to keep my focus on Mittelstand and digital transformation for Mittelstand. On this interesting topic of entrepreneurship, we organized an event called Entrepreneurs Fuck up Night, so it's like once in two months, once in 40-45 days and the 4th version will be on 13th of June at 6pm Berlin time, so we encourage entrepreneurs to join us and share their failure stories because I think that the most important when it comes to failures is to learn from them. If you don't foster a failure culture then you will highly likely want to avoid mistakes for the cost of success. Although it might sound controversial, we literally learn from our failures. Therefore, this is one of the projects that I run currently. That's why I wanted to mention and anybody is welcome. Of course this is a free and voluntarily organized event. My focus would be on the new customer projects. I am constantly creating content for Youtube for blog posts for LinkedIn. However, my target is to bring more value to the Mittelstand. So the content is uh, is around me to stand also. New customer projects. A couple of partnerships that I will announce in the next couple of weeks. Also exciting but also a couple of new proof of concept projects that we always do first with our clients. Those are on my radar. And of course as this year there won't be many races. I am saving my energy for the racist next year. Next year I will be back to racing again.

Speaker Sarah

So a lot on your plate. That sounds where we will be interesting and I will put everything in the show notes so that everyone can can reach you and get in touch with you as well as participate in the Fuck up Night. I'm gonna ask everyone on my podcast interview. So if you could start any kind of company without any limitations in terms of money or time or personal life, like a dream-like, you can think of which company or what kind of company would you start?

Speaker Can

360 Digital Transformation.

Speaker Sarah

That's your answer. All right. All right. Okay. It was a perfect answer, Can, thank you so much for your time.

Speaker Can

I thank you as well. But because I am so convinced of what we could bring to Mittelstand because they too realize their potential to the fullest extent. I wouldn't think of anything else. Of course there could be some social volunteer stuff, but I am not an expert on this. I run charity runs for kids with leukemia, for children's education. But this is very limited in comparison with what we could do with a test and therefore that was the clear answer and it was my pleasure to be here. And as usual it felt so good to talk to you Sarah.

Speaker Sarah

All right. Thank you so much.

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