How to change people's lives with low code

A digital product is a possibility to scale your solution. This episode shows that scalability is not only for the sake of revenue or profit. It also gives you the possibility to help more people in their daily life with low code.

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No pain should be told to be accepted

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I see many start-ups and ideas, but only a few of them are solving physical pain issues. Hayv is one of them. 

Marius builds data-driven technology to make neurocentric training more accessible to a wide audience in order to improve long-term performance and resilience in physical movement. Neurocentric training is the key to solve these movement limitations, and Hayv has a mission to democratize this treatment by providing options to automatically build your individual neurocentric toolkit.

Anyone has this small nudge here and there. Or some movement that is limited. Or something they want to improve on. Even professional athletes. Neurocentric Training is the key to long-term performance and resilience. However, it is only accessible to a fraction of people.

It is an exceptional story about a unique solution that can solve a problem which thousands of people have. 

Marius is using the following low code tools:  

• Zapier
• Integromat
• AirTable 
• Webflow 

Links for Hayv:
https://www.hayv.io/

If you have feedback or ideas on which topics need to be covered at this podcast - you are more than welcome to get in touch with me.

You can find more information on www.lowcode-founders.com, or you can drop me a message at sarah@biberei.de 

Enjoy and keep on building new digital products. 

Sarah 

Transcript of the podcast episode - How to change people's lives with low code

Marius
At the core of it. We are trying to build a product which allows people to get rid of their pain from home. So basically there's a lot of pain, especially chronic pain in this world that is told to be accepted basically. So we go to doctors and they maybe know why it's there but there are no long term solutions actually. And Neurocentric training is a way to solve these issues really, really fast and really efficiently.

Sarah
Hello everyone today in our current episode we have a new guest with us. It's Mario's Mario's is the founder of a new company called Hive and the company is tackling a very important problem which got even more important during the recent pandemic when our physical activities were limited high, it helps people to get rid of the physical pain during certain movements and today we will learn what Hive actually means and why their product offering is so important for each of every one of us. Hello Marius.

Marius
Hey, nice to be here.

Sarah
Thank you so much for being here. Can you introduce yourself a little bit to the audience? I mean I know you already but I guess the audience doesn't, so tell us a little bit about yourself, your current position and what Hayv actually means.

Marius
Cool, yeah, so basically I'm in the start up world for about five years now, I've done various things from even like really scale up company and building up of intake in Germany and now actually building up Hive for about six months now we are working on it together my co-founder and me hardy who is actually a medical doctor and in in neuroscience and who brings all the expertise concerning our topic, and that's actually what are companies about. At the core of it we are trying to build a product which allows people to get rid of their pain from home, so basically there's a lot of pain, especially chronic pain in this world that is told to be accepted. We go to doctors and they maybe know why it's there but there are no long term solutions actually.
Neurocentric training is a way to solve these issues really, really fast and really efficiently because we are working with your nervous system and thus also your brain and basically what we're doing is we're trying to identify the weakest link in the chain, so you basically have 20-30 systems in your brain and nervous system that are involved in movement and in pain also and we are trying to find one system that is lacking behind in activity and then identifying on which side we need to train so to make it really practical for example your eyes are so your vision is one system and then we need to train right side of eye movement for example. That's basically what our product does. We identify these weak spots in the system and identify what side, we need to train them and then we give you your drills. Really simple exercises that trigger these systems and those you can do for a week and then you get new drills and it continues like that.

Sarah
You already explained it to me at one time before but I think it's such a special product because it's so niche. So it's not a marketplace for something but something where you have to think about so much in order to develop it. So how did you come up with the idea? Did you just wake up one day and then he said “okay I really, I really wanna do it” or how was your journey? Did you experience some frustrations which brought you to the point to develop this product?

Marius
Yeah. So basically Hadi and I have known each other for 20 plus years, something like that now. Hadi actually has known center training for around six or seven years now. So he's been a medical doctor for like two or three years, something like that. And he started doing this in close cooperation with the physical therapist in Bern Germany basically learning and applying it in everyday work. And he also started to train me a lot because I did a lot of sports and stuff like that and that's how I basically got introduced to the topic and I was immediately hooked because like the first moment where I did a new drill that really worked for me and my movement just improved by I don't know 50% immediately was like okay I need to know how this works. Then I started to dive into it a bit deeper and then also it started to show that it's really obvious and for us because we know it now and and like these immediate improvements and stuff like that, it's really obvious. We just know that it works like this, and we all have Hadi in our circle. I have him to train me and to work on my pain issues and my parents and his parents and everyone we know. But at some point we realized basically when we thought about doing something in this domain and thought about doing personal training which is usually the natural way to do this because it's so complex and you need to do so much testing with the client before you can actually find the drills. But we were thinking, it is actually quite astonishing because we know it and we can apply it but there are so many people out there who can't because there are only like 1 to 2000 trainers in the world who actually doing this really good, so we thought “ok, rather than training like 100 people a year and helping our circle and just making a circle a bit bigger why not build something that can help actually like 100K or one million people a year?” And that's basically the frustration that led us to building Hayv because we are really, really into this topic and we know that it works really well, it's just that no one can use it and like so many people are told to accept their pain and they don't have to because there is a solution, but like no one can use it actually, and that's basically when we decided to not do something in the personal training sector but to build a tool that basically anyone can use and that's also why we're focused on building a B2C tool right now, so it's really not exclusive and therefore everyone [can use it].

Sarah
To sum it up, you're the reason why you go digital and not offering some some services in the local gym is to have a broader range of people who can actually use it.

Marius
Yeah, exactly, it's like our long term vision is that we, we want to facilitate a resilient society, meaning that you should be resilient enough to withstand pain and not with them, but work on it actually and solve it and you should be able to move and you should be able to do what you actually want to do, so if you want to run, you should be able to run and not just stopped running because you hurt your ankle like four years ago, something like that. That's basically the vision behind Hayv and also what keeps us going every day because we just realized and realize more and more talking to people even in the, in the younger age range, how many people are actually limited by pain or movement issues. Like so many people stop from doing what they actually want to do or performing like they want to perform in competitive sports and yeah, it shouldn't be like that.

Sarah
Yeah, it's actually a good point because while you were explaining it, I I thought about, I thought about it and I don't know anyone in my friends and family area who doesn't have any kind of physical pain problem, whether it's smaller issues like your knee hurts from time to time or whether it's your back hurting or other issues. But what you said is totally wide is that we you learn to accept it and you learned that it's kind of kind of normal that you have this physical pain and whenever it comes from sports or it comes from your your office jobs where you have to sit all day long in front of your laptop and that we like your motivation envision that this is not true. You don't have to accept your limitations and you don't have to accept this pain and I think this is a very good motivation and also some kind of social responsibility. So not only making a business out of it, just money wise, but also to change something in their awareness of physical pain and also in changing the acceptance.

Marius
Yeah, for sure. It's really interesting because there is this solution and it's not there to use and it's more like an obligation to build a tool than actually we want to build something. It's like we have tools to build this product and we have to do it and we are getting so many interesting opportunities basically from insurance companies or B2B models and like why don't you do this? And and work on this way? And it's always for us really, really important to keep this vision in mind and use this as a daily help for decisions because we don't want to have a tool that like only people insured with company X can use or something like that.It should be a tool that anyone can use and it should be affordable for anyone. So it's like tools that solve pain shouldn't cost like 100 year old months. It's like of course it's hard to build it like for she price because there's a lot of expertise running into it and it's not easy to build, but still we have the drive to build so that even students who have pain should be able to use it even if they have limited monetary resources.

Sarah
I can absolutely imagine that many companies approaching you and want to do some partnership with you because the whole topic of wellbeing and it's part of a well being is getting more and more important and I think that also during the corona pandemic, I thought it's getting more important because people now realized, okay, it's important that you feel comfortable in your own body. So do you see any effects from the epidemic on your business? Do you see that maybe it will become even more important in the future?

Marius
Yeah, for sure. People are realizing that health isn't exclusive to insurance companies and being paid for. So more and more people are willing to actually take their personal health into their own hands and work on it themselves. That's really one thing that arose during these times andalso we see that more people, of course people are at home and can't go out to get some health. So they are looking for solutions that they can apply in basically everyday usage, and that they don't need them to go to some place and like have one hour of time going there and then being there like rather having a few minutes every day and also it's really easy for people to apply when they are basically at home because For example, you usually need like 2-3 minutes, sometimes a minute moreto do your drills and actually that at home you can do it like five times a day because there's no one there, it doesn't matter where it looks and stuff like that. So you can just do it and people can get used to it and then they are more comfortable to also do it like for example in the office space in the upcoming times. And then of course, one thing we are looking into right now is, but that's more for the future is of course long Covid because we are realizing that this is a problem that gets more and more important every day basically and people are struggling from breathing issues and stuff like that and  there's no research now if we if we can really do it but we are quite optimistic that we can help there. We need to figure out some stuff beforehand. That's also a topic that is for sure coming up for us.

Sarah
You said that the user only needs 2-3 minutes per day to do the drills. That's a very short amount of time. Compared to other sport activities you can do at home, to strengthen your back, it may take longer. What I was wondering is how do you want to provide these services via an app so digital solution? How do you wanna motivate your users, how you want to make sure that people keep doing their drills and are always in the app? Because this is sometimes a problem for digital solutions as it's easy to just edit an app and you know get out of the mind. So how do you want to motivate the people?

Marius
First of all, by keeping the time short. That's for sure one thing that's really important, ike 2-3 minutes. You do it like 2 to 3 times a day. So your total is under 10 minutes a day or something like that and a really short amount of time. That's really important because you need to be able to include it in your day, then also one thing we have there apart from like the typical notification stuff you have when you use an app that you get reminders and stuff like that. Which is of course a feature a lot of people are asking for something called assessments. So by using the nervous system and by working with the nervous system we have a really luxurious position because we get an immediate response from your nervous system and we immediately know if something works. So let's say you want to see if a neuro drill works for you that we recommend for you for example you don't have to just do it and trust that it will help. But you can actually check it because you can check your movement, you can see how far you can do the toe touch or how good your shoulder moves or some issue you have for example fields and then you do your your drill and then immediately afterwards you reassess, so you do the toe touch again or you again and we'll call your shoulder fields and you will see an improvement or maybe not. Those are really key motivators because if you don't see an improvement okay, we just give you another drill and then you will see see one at some point and if you see an immediate improvement, it is a really, really nice motivator for a lot of people because they don't need to trust it ok. In eight weeks from now I will feel better. It's actually immediately, of course not lasting, then you still need to work on it. We don't have the magic pill that you just take one time and then everything is better. It's just like basically you see, okay, this helps me and if you know that it helps, we are pretty certain that a lot of people who actually have issues, we'll be motivated to do the drills daily.

Sarah
Yeah, I think that's a big difference because if you get immediate response and immediate improvement, you are motivated because you use our it actually helps. You don't have to be patient and wait for weeks and months until you get some kind of positive feedback. I think this is what makes your product offering or your service offering very special becauseI haven't seen anything similar to what you are current  developing. It's very interesting what you're doing. The content and the algorithm it's been developed for your co-founder and additional partners, right?

Marius
Yeah. So basically Hadi the co-founder is, like I said, a medical doctor and he does this Neurocentric Training for like six and for seven years now and he's worked really closely with the physical therapist and one to basically that's where he got his introduction to the topic. She was also his judo trainer and he had a shoulder injury and she helped him with that and using this approach and then he was like okay can I learn this? Then he started working with her and basically doing all the scientific research behind everything there. Then he started to learn there's like a major company in the U. S. Called Z-Health and they do the education for Neurocentric Training or like they are the major provider for education in the world. And then he basically started his education journey there took a few years because it's just like a long it's a long road. It's a lot of courses is it's a lot of money invested and it isn’t also something you can do like in a year because there's no value in just learning and just taking the courses and learning, you actually have to apply it, you have to take one course and then for a few weeks, months or years even you have to apply the new concept and then you learn no concept and that basically how he started doing this and then he worked with at lee it's and also people having issues pain but really wide ranging issues like from just physical pain to people for example that can't drive at night because they can see so well at night. So that's also something he fixed for example and we are working with someone who has like a three more and he had fixed that and there's a lot of stuff going on what we can do and that's basically what we are trying to do right now with the algorithm we are trying to take his brain and put it into into our algorithms. So we are able to do what he does in person or what he would be able to do in personal training, he's now trying to do in our algorithms and our data and then he's also, of course, providing all the contents and there are so many drills in his brain that we can use but we just need to get them in the product.

Marius
I think you really have a huge USP here because you simply can't copy the content because getting the knowledge to develop the content is yeah, there's so much work to be done, I mean you have to have this, these trainings and certifications and actual experience, so like you said, it's not only learning it from the textbook and then you're ready to go. What I think is also very interesting and very especially about your product, is not only the content and not only the problem you’re solving, but also that you completely build it without programming skills and develop it completely with no code tools. So how did you come up with that? Did you know them from previous entrepreneurial experiences? Developing something from scratch is expensive and takes a lot of time and that's why you use no code or how was that?

Marius
Yeah, exactly. So basically the first deciding factor what that before actually starting a business, it makes sense to see if it makes sense to start a business, I repeated words a lot there. Basically, we just wanted to test because what we are building, has not been built we first of all needed to see if we would be able to build this and to test this, you can build like a few months of code and then work on it and then see if it works and then okay we wasted a year. So that's basically why I chose to start off with no code tools or low code tools, whatever you want to say there. I knew them from various experiences like I knew Webflow I think four years ago for the first time or five years ago or even longer now but it's like really somewhere when they started actually and I knew it for a long time and I always had it in the back of my hat that I wanted to two start a company using this to just validate really, really fast and just build version on version in like a few days and then tested and rebuild and stuff like that. And that's why we chose to go with no code tools.

Sarah
Which other tools are you using? So you said Webflow and whatever it is you have?

Marius
Exactly. So we are using Webflow to build all the front and and all the visual stuff for the for the work application which is currently just in your browser. It's not a mobile app, not natively but you can open it on all devices in your browser. So that's what web flow is for. And then web flow is usually focused on building websites. It's where they are really strong and you need to use a few tricks to get it to be a web basically. Um, So we are using Memberstack which is basically an identification provider to make all the user management and accept payments and stuff like that and have used a specific content and actually show some content only to a few users and stuff like that. So that's where we're using Memberstack for. And then we are using Airtable which is basically a visual database. It's kind of like most people know Microsoft Excel. So it's really that on, I don't like the term, on steroids because  it's so commonly used for some tools but it's actually that, it's like a really strong visual database where we have all of our drills in there, all of our tests and we are building all the profiles in there and the algorithm actually runs in Airtable to use the data and then match all the drills and stuff like that. So that's what we are using Airtable for and to make all of this work together. We are using Zapier which is basically to build APIs visually and that basically then connects all the tools and sends the data between them.

Sarah
So there are a lot of tools you didn't know before because you said Webflow was very common to you. Did you have problems let alone how to use the tools and, most importantly, how to bring them all together?

Marius
It is not easy, I'd say you need to do quite some tricks to build it. But I think it's something that anyone can learn if they take one week out of their schedule and just intensively work up with the tools basically. It's of course it helps if you have like a small understanding of code, for example, because in Webflow, you are basically using CSS just visually and also there are some API calls you need to make in Zapier and stuff like that, so it's really helpful, but I don't think that it's something you can't learn and like a week.

Sarah
I think it's so fantastic because when you say “yeah, you need some time” and then you say “it's a week” and if you think, you think about it, my background is computer science and if you spend one week into any kind of programming language, yes, you can do something, but you can't build a product out of it.

Marius
Yeah, for sure. we will have to see and I think in the next few months a lot will be happening in the no code and low code space there and I already see a lot of new tools emerging and stuff like that. It's still a challenge to build production-ready products using this setup. That really depends on what you are building, if you are building a platform or something like a community site or something like that. It, I actually think that you can build production ready applications using the setup but for us for example it's really, really hard to, we have to do a lot of stitching together to make it work for our use case and there's always I think a place for for no code and a place for code let's say it like this.

Sarah
Is this the reason why you also searching for a CTO currently on LinkedIn who can help you then?

Marius
Yeah, exactly. So the plan for us is that we we use this to build, we are currently in alpha version and we are looking to build more alpha versions that are really focused on certain specific topics like migraines or back pain or stuff like that and using those and building those will all be done in no code. Why we do this and why we use it to validate and some other things there. We want to start building production ready code that we can then use to have a native app for example and have it really running in AWS or something like that because we are also concerned with data and stuff like this. We need to check some boxes if we want a production ready application and I think that's a place where we are a bit too complex to really have it in no code which is not something that will be forever isolated in a few months or a year or something from now on. You will be able to build really, really complex products using the setup.

Sarah
You just said two important points. The first one, which I really like, is that low code is not black and white, it's not that you either don't use it at all and start programming from the very first day and it's also not that you have to stick to it until the end, so you can use it where it helps you and in your case it really helps you to validate a step potential market are people understanding also the concept because, like you said, there is no other product where you can see people actually using it or in understanding it. So I think that's a good term and also I think that low code is just at the beginning. People are just understanding what’s going on and I still see, especially in the more tech area, that people don't trust it, they say this just can't be true, you can't develop something in a week because normally it takes you a couple of months to get something on the street and validated. So I think the products are getting better and better and also the awareness, especially in Germany, it's getting better and better, which then we, which then also relates to the product we're getting better. So I think we will see huge journey in front of us and everyone beginning yet

Marius
I've read a nice quote or not to quote someone, someone posting something. I'm sorry that I can't give credit because I don't remember who it was. But basically the message was that “no code and low code is actually code. It's just the way to produce the code is different”. So it is code, like of course, because the website you build with the flow is actually code and it's running in your browser. It's just the way how to produce the code that is different and that really changes the mindset for a lot of people because it is still this similar result you get in the end.

Sarah
Yeah, I think we just need more proof and examples and in Germany we, we don't have so many, that's why I'm so happy to have you here as you have proof and example that it can work and I think more people showing their products and showing actual results and seeing yes, it's working, the better it will be at the end. Coming back to your position because you wrote something which I never saw before and I think it's very interesting. So for everyone who is looking for a CTO position and you live in the Southern area of Germany, I hope you don't have someone for the position yet. So you wrote that the CTO gets 25% more salary than you and your co-founder. Why did you write that?

Marius
Because salaries are always a big topic in startups. People know that you can pay the same as for example, I don't know,  in Germany, right, you can pay the same salary. It's just not possible in, in the first few months and years. And the message that some people get there because you can pay the same salary as bigger companies is that you just try to something really cheaply and hire a team and then you have all the chairs and then you, you just make an exit and you're really happy and all the other people are like, yeah, it was a nice experience I learned a lot. But where's my kind of monetary reward? And to show that we are not paying less than the biggest companies in Germany, which I think is the situation any startups in. And to show that this is not because we don't want to do this, it's more that, okay, we have limitations in terms of fundraising and stuff like that. What the salary we can actually pay and it's not about what we want to pay because we actually would like to pay more than the biggest companies in Germany. It's just to a certain point not possible. And that's why we say, okay, at least we can pay you more than we pay ourselves because we are doing this for of course the shares and not for salary currently. Or like the salaries of the motivation for us to build this right. And to show that we are willing to take a step back and give our respect to people that give us the trust to join us this early on. That is something where we should want to show, okay, we want to give you more than we give ourselves.

Sarah
Could you say you're working more for shares, which I can absolutely agree. It's the same way we are currently working. So do you, can you think of giving someone whether it's a CTO or someone else also some shares in return?.

Marius
Yeah, for sure. I mean, that's the way where we have a salary, of course, which should be 25% higher and not meaning not 25% of zero, but of actual value, which is only one part of the actual salary because then we use virtual Aesop models and stuff like that to basically hand out equity to then match the salary that a big company would be able to pay, right? So using the equity, you can then have people actually match the salary. But of course it's still something that is really a way of trusting us because Yes, in theory, you have like, I don't know 1% and it's €6000. But it is only if we do an exit or if you are in the position to sell your share sometimes. So that's really, also about trust. It is a really big part of this, especially now in the early stage when onboarding people, it's really important for us to give them equity and to have to be part of the company because if we profit and if we grow this thing and monetary things start to happen. We also want people that give us the trust in the beginning to also profit with us.

Sarah
Yeah. And I also think that you feel much more responsible for your, for your own work if you have some kind of shares because normally if you are employed in a big corporate, you get your monthly salary more or less no matter what you're doing. So you can perform good, you can perform bad. I mean not in the long term, it doesn't really matter how you work, you get your salary. That's why I really like this concept of getting shares and I wish more more companies, not only startup but also existing companies would also offer something like this because I think it brings more motivation and maybe you are also attracting other people who are not just working for the money but working forward over the vision of the company.

Marius
Yeah, sure. I mean we need people that support our vision right now.

Sarah
Yeah, absolutely.

Marius
That's really important.

Sarah
You did another thing you said in your job position and I really  like this job position and so I am not applying for this position, I have my own job now. It really caught my eye when I saw it. And you also wrote that you have a concept of forward pay. Can you explain this to you what's meant with that?

Marius
Yeah, I have to give give credit air also I unfortunately forgot the name because it's a few months back in time but there's something I didn't come up with myself I heard from someone but it's it really catch me because basically the concept of forward pay is that instead of receiving your salary at the end of the month which is usually the way it works because you work one month and then you get paid for the work. We want to pay in front of your work. At the beginning of the month you get your salary and then you work for the months basically. And that also is about trust I think because we, I'll have to pay everything at the beginning of the month, right? Our rend and our invoices and stuff like that, everything is basically happening at the beginning of the month. But the money we all get at the end of the month. And we always, for example, if you change jobs or if you come out of university, it's always this really weird period where you have to align everything and we want to show using this that we actually trust you to do your work and we don't need to control you. And then if   we are happy with the result we will give you your money but we give you your money so you can live your life and then we trust you to do your best work.

Sarah
Yeah, it’s very fair. Unfortunately I never saw it at any company because as you said, the normal way is first work for us a month, then you're gonna get paid hopefully. And then you have to come up with some ideas how to pay your bills or how to pay your rent up front. If you go back now in time when starting the company, what was the biggest challenge your experience and if you wish one thing before you started the company, what would it be?

Marius
That's a really interesting and tough question. Because there are big daily challenges. If it wouldn't and if it were easy then anyone would build this product. So it's really hard for me to boil down one moment or one challenge. But I think what in general is always the thing is how do you keep going when things hit? Because it will happen? It will happen all the time. And you will have a lot of calls and especially if you're fundraising, you will have a lot of calls with angels and stuff like that who just have a different opinion. Especially when coming out of university, that's not our challenge right now, but I hear it from a lot of people in my network who found a company out of universities that in university you're kind of used to just accepting what people tell you when you talk to them because they are like on a pedestal, right? And learning, feedback is important, don't get me wrong, but if you talk to people and they have a better opinion about your business model or your company or whatever. It’s just an opinion, and yes, if 100% of people have that opinion, maybe there's some truth behind it, but you have to sort it right. And you still have to believe in your vision and you still have to keep going and that is really a hard and a tough challenge because for us also a lot of people told us “yeah, you can do it”, “yea it can be  done really” and and we don't know, maybe it can’t be done, we'll see. But having the motivation to stand up and try and try again and try again and keep going. It's always a daily challenge I think.

Sarah
Yeah, yeah. It comes through entrepreneur lives in general, no matter whether whether you build digital product or a no code product or something, if you're if you welcome something new and especially if other people saying “no, it doesn't work” in one product and it's a bad idea and “why the hell did you do that?” You really have to believe in yourself and your idea, did you say “I accept your feedback and I use your feedback and I accept your feedback, but at the end it's my decision what I'm gonna do all of this”

Marius
For sure, and it's really hard to do. It's really hard.

Sarah
But I think that's also a good way to have some personal growth, personal development. Because it's your baby at the end. If you start a company and if you get criticized, you may think you as a person who gets criticized, which is often not the case, but I think it's also that you grow and accept that there's you as a person and there’s you as the company and you as a person are not getting criticized.

Marius
Yeah

Sarah
I have one last question and it's a secret question. I ask everyone, until this podcast is launched. Then, I will have to come up with a new question. The secret question is: if you could start any kind of company without any limitation in terms of money, time personal, which one would you start?

Marius
Hiyv, basically. Yeah, to be honest. We are doing this really vision driven and it's really important for us to build this. So if this wouldn't be there, then I would build it. Yeah. And  , if Hiyv already exists, then I think it would be kind of like a training center or something like that where you are not okay, we're not limited to doing once sport or something like this. So basically a place where kids can come and they can train and they can also train using Neurocentric principles and  really train in a good way because I think it's the current way we train kids. It's really not the best way forward because it's basically survival of the fittest. So you get blown into a football club and in the end a few people come out of it being professional athletes or being like the winners or something like that. But there are other ways and there's a nice example in tennis, I don't know if it was Nadal or someone like that, but there's like two tennis players at the top of the world. And one of them started playing tennis as a child and basically never did anything else. One of them did so many different sports on a high level and then at some point he said “ok, let’s do tennis” and then was also one of the best teams players in the world. And that is the concept I would like to follow having like a training center where kids can come and actually do not only football or whatever, but do gymnastics and climbing and football and whatever they want to do and have them move well and have them move injury free. So they are not destroyed when they turn 18.

Sarah
So I'm pretty sure when Hiyv is a multi million business. You can do the next project. What you just explained.

Marius
Yeah, that yeah, exactly. That would be the plan. If we do an exit at some point, if we want to do it. That's also a question. But if money wouldn't be an issue after a few years and Hiyv is running and just helping a lot of people that would for sure be a project I would tackle.

Sarah
All right, thank you so much for joining us for your time. I think it was a very interesting episode. So in the show notes, I will post the website and your CTO or job positions so that everyone can apply. Yeah. So thank you very much for your time.

Marius
Thanks for having me, it was a pleasure.

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