How you can start a business without burning out

This episode is slightly different from the others. This time we are also talking about low code and give a concrete example of an MVP that was built with low code.
But we are also touching on an even more important topic. Low Code is only the tool for you to start your business.
What is far more important is that you keep an eye on yourself physically and mentally. Social media as an example can give us a strange view of how start-ups or entrepreneurs should be like. Mostly without sleep, proper food, time for health, and a lot of caffeine.

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Does it really have to be like that? Does it really have to feel that hard?

In this episode, we will discuss whether they can be other ways to build a long-lasting successful business that brings you joy.

Ways to contact Johanna:
https://instagram.com/johannarenoth

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 https://www.linkedin.com/in/johannarenoth/

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www.johannarenoth.com

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Book recommendations:

Bullshit Jobs: The Rise of Pointless Work, and What We Can Do About It

If you have feedback or ideas on which topics need to be covered at this podcast - you are more than welcome to get in touch with me.

You can find more information on www.lowcode-founders.com, or you can drop me a message at sarah@biberei.de

Enjoy and keep on building new digital products. 

Sarah 

Transcript of the episode: How you can start a business without burning out

Johanna (Intro)
I had a co-founder at first and both of us were non technical people. We had this idea that we needed a content management system that tied to a map with GPS properties because we wanted it to be basically like a tour guide in your pocket. And we, well I think it was my co founder initially actually who discovered this ready-made almost ready-made software platform where we could make little tweaks in there and not customize it too much unfortunately. But it was enough for us to get an MVP. Or create an MVP at the time.

Sarah
Hello and welcome to a new episode of the Low Code founders podcast. My name is Sarah from the Biberei Podcast and I'm the host of this podcast and today we have a new guest with us. It is Johanna and Johanna is a business coach focusing on helping entrepreneurs and leaders. And I know johanna for quite a while, I think we met on linkedin and some meetings and we already had a very night together and johanna is very inspiring for me and I follow her on instagram and what your stories and almost every day because she is showing how a business can be different without hustling until you have a burnout. And what's also very interesting is that Johanna also started a company I think a couple of months or years ago. Pre-corona, if you remember this time, and she was also using low code when she started to hear her company. Today we will learn about Johanna's journey. And of course she will share some learnings she had gathered when using low code. Welcome, Johanna.

Johanna
Hi Sarah! Thanks so much for having me. And I want to say thanks so much for your kind words on what I put out on Instagram and Linkedin, that that means so much and I'm so glad that my work resonates with you. Thanks so much.

Sarah
Absolutely. So of course we will put all contact details in the show notes. So that's also other people can follow you. Before we start talking low code maybe you can share a little bit, what are you currently doing? What is the content you want to share with? We want to share, especially on instagram. And what is your current focus?

Johanna
Sure, super happy to talk about that. So, I'm an executive and leadership coach. I mostly work with founders, entrepreneurs, sometimes Solo-Preneurs and ambitious freelances too. Right? There's no limit. And my work really is in helping those people find a way to define success on their own terms, which also includes making sure that you have a thriving, vibrant, healthy life because when and this is informed by my own experience. When I was a tech founder, I burnt out because I was trying to do all the things I was really caught up in the whole hustle culture and it didn't do me a tremendous amount of good and when I came out of that experience on the other side, I saw that there's really a lack of role models around this, there are these conversations aren't being had very often. I feel like especially for our generation, the millennials, maybe that our idea of entrepreneurship is very much shaped by the ethos of Silicon Valley, which means, you know, tech in general, which is to work a lot and to hustle a lot and to really put work above everything else. And I think while this is a good solution for some people right in the heart of Hearts, in your heart of Hearts, you want to do that, that's fine. Not against that, what my work is about is showing people that there is a different way and that it's okay to opt out of that and to really set out to define what you want, what your goals are genuinely and what a good life looks like to you because really, when you look at business, it's a marathon, right? And you still have, even if you're really passionate about your work, like I love my work, I love working with entrepreneurs, I love putting out the content on social media, I love writing my newsletter, I love doing my podcast, like I'm so excited about everything. And at the same time, there's still life right, there's tending to your health, there's taking care of your relationships, there's taking vacations right, life has so much more to offer. Balance is a tricky concept. When we find a way of balance that applies for us and works for us, then we, that also feeds back into the hole the health of the business as well. Right? You're able to show up as a better boss, you're able to show up and make clear decisions because you're not constantly under stress. So really I would say to tie it all together, I would say my approach is more holistic in terms of really taking in all the different aspects of your life and trying to see how you can supporting you, how you can build them together with your business to have a life that's more well rounded, healthy, happy, vibrant, thriving. All the, all the glittery fun good words,

Sarah
It was a lot of context. There were some thoughts in my mind when you were explaining what you're currently doing. The first one, it reminds me completely of Elon musk because I can't quote exactly. But he said something like, I think if you were 100 and 20 hours per week, you can achieve three times more than your competition. And no doubt. I mean Elon musk is a brilliant businessman. I mean he achieved a lot of things. So I think that one can’t say anything against it. But this is, this is also a role model which can easily burn you out, which can easily break you down and destroy your health. And I see this also, I mean before I started my own company, I was in the corporate world for quite a while and I saw some people one in the same direction. So I think it's, it also applies to non-entrepreneurs, like people in corporations, but if you compare, do you see that in startups or what we call startups, that there's a higher chance to burn out or do you see it's equal. So it doesn't really matter whether you are working as an entrepreneur and a start up or whether you are a manager in the corporate world.

Johanna
So to be honest with you, Sarah, I don't I don't know any studies about this, right? So I can't really make a qualified statement on this. I think either realm has its own challenges in terms of when you look at burnout. I think for both, the big question is, or what I see happening is people enter into these different fields or enter into entrepreneurship in ways of career too. So, you know, if you use career as a broader term here, they enter into their careers without ever having an opportunity or maybe not even asking themselves, what do I want a good life to look like for me? Because we go what I've noticed also in my, in my studies at university, we go for university and we're very focused on getting the internships, getting the work experience, you know, doing the work, doing the studying, writing the papers, and there's very little education to none around mental health as a broader term as well. Right? Not just if something cute happens, but what can you do to prevent that and wellness in the sense of what do I need as an individual? What do I need to do for myself to feel good or to be in a state where I'm well in all senses of my existence and beyond that.
Really supporting people also in questioning or figuring out what work looks like when it's mm you know, I don't want to say ideal because work has its challenges to a lot of people and not everyone has the privilege of the situation where they can actually choose as freely as someone maybe as you and I made. And at the same time, even considering the circumstances or even especially if it's people who are due to their university degree, able to make fairly free choices. I really wish there was a broader conversation about this or there was more of a conversation, so people feel more empowered to make choices that that support them better and before that, to have tools maybe, or to have more knowledge about what it means to make a good choice for themselves, and I think that's a risk I seen either side, because before a while I was bootstrapping my startup, I was a consultant in a really big corporation, an external consultant, and I saw that too, I saw people there who are really struggling, right? And especially with Covid and working from home, it got a lot more challenging for a lot of people, but even before that really they saw people who are very challenged in doing jobs that they didn't really enjoy. I mean, there's a book by David Graeber about this phenomenon called bullshit shops, just how detrimental it can be to your well being. So I don't think anyone has it easier necessarily. I think for entrepreneurship, the challenge is really what are the role models and what can you, what, what can you emulate? Because some people don't need that, I feel a lot of people still, you know, we look to someone, right? We look to a story we tell, we look to something, we can connect that at first tells us so I can do this too, and then, oh, how they're doing it sounds cool and if we only have one story, then, you know, what are the alternatives, what empowers people and supports them in telling or in crafting their own way of doing it.

Sarah
Yeah, and I also think that for entrepreneurs and being an entrepreneur myself, it's not only the role models were missing, it's also the fear of failure because at least in Germany if you start a business, I mean you are a crazy person already then if you, if you struggle and if your failure which can happen very easily just that's something a couple of days ago that after five years, 50% of all companies started gone for whatever reason, so there's a, there's a likelihood of failure and I think this is also the reason why we are hustling so much because we have to show it to ourselves but we most importantly have to shower to society that yes, we can make it and it was not a bad idea and it's not a failure.
Another reason is that especially if you're a first time entrepreneur and you don't have a bunch of money in your pocket which can save your life for quite a while. You are asked to take care about a lot of different things. It's about bookkeeping, it's about sales, when it's about marketing, when your are your actual business, whatever it might be. You can easily get into a way where you just work and work and work and work and also no one is stopping you, whereas in a normal corporation where at least if you have a good manager, someone is keeping an eye on you and on your health, if you're an entrepreneur, no one is doing that, you have to do it, do this for yourself. And I'm asking myself, and I'm asking you this question,what can we do about it? So for example, if you have an entrepreneur in that situation, who's thinking, okay, I'm really working too much, but somehow they have the feeling that they can't, they can't stop it. They realized that something needs to be changed. But how do we do it now?

Johanna
Right. I love that question and I just want to add on to something that you said earlier because I love that you brought it up, which is working a lot to deal with being nervous about failure, being scared of failure. And I think that's actually a pretty big element of why we're seeing what we're seeing, which is when we're being told or the sort of the model of the story around this. The narrative is that if you work hard, you will make it and there's nothing wrong with working hard. But I believe it's much smarter to be intentional with your work and then apply hard work where it makes sense of where there's an output for it or use it very sparingly like a tool where it's really necessary to push something forward if at all. But if it's the default, I think that's mostly fed by feeling like you have control or maybe you have more of a grasp on the situation that's very uncertain Because we don't know what's going to happen. It could be that it takes off one day after, you know, just all of a sudden one day really catches on in the market and then all of a sudden you need to hire a bunch of people and make things work or it flops right.
There's, there's an element of unpredictability. It's just normal. There's an element of unpredictability in it that we, we just, I guess in a sense, have to accept. And then there are tools around that we can use. A big element is working with your nervous system to make sure that you're as calm as you can through meditation for breath work for working out for being careful about the stimulant. See use caffeine, for example, if you're a fairly sensitive person to that, I would for instance really recommend looking at what consuming caffeine does to you, how much you scroll online, what that does to your nervous system, right? All of these things.   also, maybe the movies you watch at night really make sure that you help yourself in that way. And just to make things a bit easier on you in terms of managing the anxiety of course when you're deep into it, then I would always recommend seeing a professional. I mean you can work with a coach and at some point there's also a threshold where some things turn into a territory where a coach or advisor can't help you anymore and it should really be someone with a different training.   And in terms of the entrepreneur that you mentioned, this is a really interesting question because to be honest, mm speaking from my experience, when I went through it, I would not want to, I was not willing to hear anyone's advice because I thought I needed to do this right. I was so convinced that I had to work all the time and on weekends and that was the way to be passionate and show up for whatever you needed to do. So I could see there maybe other people as well who have that mindset when they're going through it, right, that they think they're on the right path and in that sense it's very challenging. But sometimes you just have to let people do their thing as hard as it is, and continue to offer them to give them support or to give them contacts of people who can, who they can seek out if someone is more receptive, right?
If you're an entrepreneur listening right now and you're feeling challenged, overwhelmed or you feel like, you know, this isn't going down a good path. I can tell that this is not sustainable, then there are a couple of things you can do, and I think one is   allowing yourself to be vulnerable, right? I think that the biggest, the best thing I allow myself to do in the process is to talk to my team about it and tell them, look, I'm not doing well, I love working with you, and at the same time, I can tell this is really bad for my health right now, my health is going downhill, and that was really challenging such a conversation to have, and at the same time it changed our relationship in a way, and as a leader you need to be, I think there's a there's also walking a fine line when people feel like maybe you're over sharing a bit, right, or when when they feel like suddenly they have to lead you. At the same time, I would rather suggest, I think it's probably better, you know, depending on how you feel, but it's probably a better idea to error on the side of being a bit more forthcoming with what's going on in your life as a leader, because that also enables other people in your company or your co founder or whoever you work with freelancers also to feel like they're talking to a human right now, I think we all feel as founders or entrepreneurs, we have to be superhuman, like Elon Musk or something, and we can't we can't admit that we have, we have our flaws or challenges. So that's the first thing is really allowing yourself to a degree of vulnerability, right? Whatever you feel comfortable with, and I think this also depends on how, how you've communicated with the people around you before. The other thing, the second thing is find a group of people who are like minded, try to find a circle of entrepreneurs around you mean ideally if you're in a startup hub or in a tech hub or an entrepreneur hub, then it would be great if those people are local and at the same time the past year and a half have shown us that we can make friends anywhere in the world, right? So really I would advise you to do that too and really have a group of people or just two or three founder friends that can be way enough who you feel you can share your challenges with and it feels like you're being seen and heard, right? You don't have to explain the situation to someone, not like you have to explain it to someone who's not going through it. I think that and really having a space where you can share openly and freely among peers where you know that you're being supported and there is no judgment, I think that's that can also be really helpful in avoiding going down that path too far and then of course, I mean, I was saying this a little bit out of self interest to, but honestly, if you feel like this is something where any outside support to, then I would, I would recommend looking for a coach or a therapist or it could be anything right. If you're a spiritual person, you could also talk to somebody in your religious denominations more like a community leader. And because what I see in this work or when I talk to entrepreneurs is really, and what I like so much about this also is to give them the space where they can be and where they can share and where they don't have to hold back. If you give yourself the gift of maybe once every other week or once, once a week or once a month, whatever it is where you can be you and you can talk about work and what you can talk about your challenges with someone who doesn't judge you, who doesn't want anything from you, who doesn't, you know, who's not implied in any way of hierarchy with you, who is not an investor, who's really an outside person. And that can be, that can really shift a lot of things and that can support you in many ways because you are giving yourself that space to explore what's going on inside you aside from anyone else's interests and you're really giving yourself that our how much every time it is to be you and to look at what's going on with you. And I think it's not much encouraged, I think in some environments and at the same time it can be so powerful. So I can only encourage you also to do that whoever the person is you feel like is the correct one for you.

Sarah
So there were many, many great advices and I really hope that yeah, if someone in the audience is listening to it and feels that way to be open also to this advice and maybe to add to advices which helped me quite a lot, especially in the beginning, the first one is nature, sounds pretty simple, but I have the pleasure to live in the black forest. The nature here is pretty, pretty nice and it's pretty close. So every morning I just go out and walk into the forest to have a fresh mind For like 30 or 45 minutes a little bit depending on   that situation and also when I feel I don't know what to do and I have so many different fronts in my mind, I just go into the forest because everything is, there is very green and where we, you know where we open and stairs not as much destruction, there's more social times. I can be really be me again and what also helped me personally a lot is to accept the imperfection.
Can't do everything 100% perfect and I'm pretty happy that I learned is years ago when I was working full time and my M. B. A part time Because until that I was always giving 100% in in every situation, because there was always one thing to focus on but I realized   having a full time job, having apart from NBA getting married at the same time, having also some friends, you can't manage everything And you have to accept to yourself. And I think this is a very big challenge and I see this also with friends who are also entrepreneurs to not have 100% perfect each and every time and I really like a quote it says “enough is enough”, you don't have to have always more and have better and higher and and and all those terms, if you are, if you, if you feel comfortable with what you have, it's enough, it's enough what you have and you can be really proud on what you have achieved instead of comparing it all the time. two Other entrepreneurs or to other companies. This doesn't mean that you should not aim for higher goals while we all want to meet and we all want to achieve something, this should not be sad with that, but to accept it and to be really happy with what you have and what you have achieved. You talked a little bit already about the experience you made when you started your first company and maybe you want to share a little bit what it was, I mean I know it already well the audience doesn't, and why did you use low code? And how did you come up with using low code?

Johanna
It was an app in the tourism space and we wanted to revolutionize the guidebook and by the way I'm not, I'm considering bringing it back depending on how things go with traveling, so I don't want to go too deeply into it. At the time we, I had a co-founder at first and both of us were non technical people. We had this idea that we needed a content management system that tied to a map with GPS properties because we wanted it to be like basically like a tour guide in your pocket and we, well I think it was my co-founder initially who discovered this ready-made, almost ready-made software platform where we could make little tweaks in there and not customize it too much unfortunately, but it was enough for us to get an MVP or create an MVP at the time, the co-founder and I then decided to split ways. And I think co-founder relationships by the way is a whole another topic to talk about. I find that is not talked about far enough in the entrepreneur in tech space, but let's leave that aside.  I, at the time, was really happy with it. And then I began through the founder of Adalo who was in, no not Adalo, sorry, of Softer who was an adventure capital program with me, she introduced us to deeper levels of low and no code and I thought this is so cool, right? Because a nontechnical person like me, I mean I have a, have a degree in political science and an MBA, so I'm definitely not a tech person by training and I felt it was really intuitive and actually accessible for someone like me to try having a tech startup to build an mvp at least or have do it at a fairly low cost and to get my hands into something where I think even five years ago in terms of the state of tech or what I felt was accessible to me, I just would not have had the opportunity. So I loved all of that. I'm also considering using low code or no code tools if I am bringing this back next year because I think it allows for a lot of flexibility and at the same time, is more economical. It's a more economical solution where you really can play with it a bit more without, I mean, I also don't want to downplay the development costs, but it definitely feels like something that's more within reach for trying a concept again, then having to get, you know, an entire team and program it here in Germany or even hiring somebody or, you know, going through this whole thing like who gets how much equity and what if it doesn't work out and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So I feel like low and no code tools really were, we're a really fun and helpful way for me to get into the field.

Sarah
Yeah. And you touched an economic aspect to it, which is, yeah, even if you, if you use someone or hire someone who's doing it for you, it's still much, much cheaper than doing it in a traditional way. And also maybe to share one example I just did with one of my clients because I think it's, it's a wonderful example is that, he also started the company as a nontechnical person and he didn't had the time to actually get into the no code and low code tools because there are easy use cases where you can use a couple of tutorials, just some templates and then you're ready to go. There are also situations where it's more complex and especially his situation was more complex. So there was not a tailor made template to use. So we developed for him and now comes to a very cool part is that we reached it within 1.5 months. So from first “yes, we do it together” until okay. We have our first real client on the productive application starting it. And the really good thing about this was not only that it was very fast because 1.5 months is not so much, especially when there were also some meetings and to discuss how the application should look like. But it also gave him the possibility to show the application already to potential clients while we were still developing it. That was very cool and the best part is that he is now able to further develop it without us which makes me very happy. I mean it sounds a little bit weird at the beginning because I mean I'm a software development agency and normally it should be my goal that clients kind of stay with me, some agencies think like that. But it makes me very happy that he is now able to make changes by himself and that's what he's also clearly doing, get another co-founder who was then the further developing it and this I think this is a very good situation where people can think about it because I also see that yes, no code and low code tools there can be easy to learn depending on the tool of course and what you want to do with it but people don't have to time to do it and this could be or are too afraid to use it and this could be asked a solution, finding someone who build your MVP or even a little bit more and then you have something to start off the ground. I really think that if you really use low code and no code tools the whole entrepreneurship can be changed in so many people have no more possibilities to start their own entrepreneur journey with those tools and this possibility to either do it themselves or just need a much lower budget to start.

Johanna
Yeah, yeah, and I love that, that's what I really love about no code and low code tools is how it really is for me, I guess with my more non technical perspective, it looks like it can really change the tech world and how we think about digital entrepreneurship, especially because it's very easy now for someone who has, you know, I'm thinking, I'm in a region with a lot of tourism for instance, and I could see someone, you know, making their own marketplace app here for something or it would just be, you know, I could see how there's, there's a lot of possibility for maybe microSaaS companies or just people doing a lot of more more smaller projects that feel a very particular niche, not so much the whole unicorn thing where you really disrupt an entire market, but you, you know, for someone who knows the market really well that there could be space to create a digital solution that still generates good profit, right and serve markets that so far we wouldn't have been able to serve just because the development costs would have been so high that, this is not really a point in doing it unless you can actually program it yourself. And then it's also the question like, why are you doing it? So, I really, I really like that. And I'm looking forward to seeing what happens over the next couple of years with that as the tools keep developing and more and more people are learning about no and low code tools and I'm glad you're doing this work with this podcast to, to show people just how far you can take it in the different use cases because it makes it makes it a lot more tangible.

Sarah
Yeah. And, and also you said many softwares to service software. I mean, this is what we're also doing. I mean, we have so many different ideas that we just start developing our own products and this is so cool because you have an idea and you have no idea what that's working out whether you have enough customers and clients, but you don't have to do a huge complex business case. Calculate the business case, which will never turn out the way you calculated because you can just try and maybe invest a couple of days into the product and then see how it goes and then also adapt why you're learning and this is a benefit. Even if you can programme yourself, you're not that fast, you can't right? And maybe if you are Elon Musk again, you can do it, but now a person can't do it. This is even a more important aspect and the economic one I think because money is often not a problem with the speed, it's time, it's market timing which sometimes causes problems and also the speed of really adjusting your product and using the feedback you have gathered from your customers and clients. Okay, we talked about a lot of things that we talked about the past and I'm very curious because you have always new project in your mind, what is, where can we see you in five years and now that's a stupid question. But so what is your, what, what's next on your plate something you want to share with us?

Johanna
If you ask me, if you ask me about me in five years and I'll be, you know, I'll be the Oprah of chill entrepreneurship. I'm trying, I'm trying to get people used to just calling me Johanna mostly because my last name is unpronounceable in anywhere outside of Germany, so we'll see if that's, if that sticks.  So for me right now I'm very excited to work with people one on one. And I have the podcast, it's called Business for Optimists where we, you know, we're inviting people on for the first season at least to share how they broke the mold in entrepreneurship and define things their own way. And I'm very excited about the podcast because we have a seasonal concept, so season one is breaking the mold. Season two will be about money, just money from the religious point of view, because I feel like that informs or perspective of money a lot monetary theory, I know for some people there's a spiritual aspect to it, how to invest personal finance, I really want to do something that's educational for people and also it helps me understand the topic a bit better because I see it a lot in entrepreneurship and especially for solopreneurs and people are employed, that it's such a difficult topic for us and when you're an entrepreneur or when you have to quote somebody with your services, then there's this whole thing about am I asking for too much, Am I really worth this? And it comes down, I think in some element, to this challenge that we have around money, because wanting money is seen as something bad, right? There's all these different layers of challenges we have around the topic, so I'm looking forward to doing a bit of educational work around that. And   I also have a group program that I'm working on that's called Detox Your Business, which is very fun, right? Because if your body gets a juice cleanse, we can do that for your business to where I want to work with a group of already established well established entrepreneurs in the sense that they already have a business and we look at different aspects of what's going on where they're at, if they're still on track to what they think is their goal and that makes them happy and healthy and what needs to be pruned, it's basically like cutting back a tree right where you need to cut for two flour and flourish the next year and that's that's what the business detox will be about. So I'm excited about that too. It will probably launch later this fall. We'll see,

Sarah
wow. So a lot of you on your plate and we were looking for it to to hear the money episodes on your podcast because I think I haven't shared with you, but I'm a huge friend of personal finance, so I love shares, I love any kind of investment opportunities and actually I always wanted to make a podcast about it.
Maybe I will do it with you, if you're interested. Without the knowledge I have about personal finance and without the possibility that I have invested a couple of years ago before I started my own company, I would have not become an entrepreneur because I wouldn't have the possibility of not having income for a couple of months. And this is something I really want to share with everyone outside is that personal finance investment is not only for a retirement, it's far better to have it why you're working because then you can decide whether you still won't work for this company or whether you want to start your own company or whether you want to go study again. If you think about it just makes president finance so sexy because it's not for retirement when you're old and gray it's rather to have your possibilities right now. It's a very interesting topic and I'm happy that you’ll bring it up.

Johanna
Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And especially, when it comes down to the “I'm doing the work I'm doing because I want to”, you know, when I was studying politics, we were always hating on people in business school quite a bit. I think that's just the thing and you know, we were going for all these theories and it was always, oh the economy, right, That's the problem until I realized while the economy is made up of people consuming and different things and also businesses, right? And there are different types of businesses and there are people behind these businesses. So my intention is to to especially support leaders who have kind hearts and who care while also making a profit at becoming very successful, you know, to change how we think about doing business and how our economy operates one business at a time basically. And I think there's so much it's so important. What you said is the empowerment angle and personal finance and really realizing, well what money do I have and how do I spend it, not just in terms of consumption, but where do I put it? Right? It's like in the garden where do I plan to see now? What do I want to see, where is this going? How can I use it? And again, it's not something we're taught a lot. Something to learn independently on our own. And I think especially before you just shared, I'm sure that you inspired a lot of people to look into this more to be more proactive with their money and where it goes.

Sarah
Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, so many important topics to discuss. Okay, thank you. I know I don't know what to say at the end now, but thank you so much, Johanna. It was a pleasure to have you here and I will   definitely put everything in the show notes so people can contact you. People can listen to your podcasts, especially when their money episodes  coming into life and also the book you mentioned about the bullshit jobs

Sarah
I have seen it so often but I have never read it, but I would definitely do. All right. Thank you so much Johanna..

Johanna
Thanks, thanks so much for having me, Sarah and I'm very excited to have been on your show.

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